Glad to hear from you. Is it possible to post an update to that "what's left" sheet that you have? It's nice to have something visual to look at to represent how far you have gotten.
I'm totally understanding of delays, perfectionism, and a genuine desire to make the best product possible - that's what we paid for and what we all want, too. It's the lack of concrete information that is most frustrating, and the last two months with NOTHING have really been tough to handle. I have a suggestion, and I don't know how you will feel about it: could you try [in the absence of the advance PDF, which now looks unlikely to happen] to release a few tidbits of the game? A section of the world background, or one full blessing, or some other bit of actual, real game material? It would whet our appetites, and keep up the interest, better than "it's coming, we promise", however sincere that is. Thansk for your time, and for listening to the grumbling from us in the weeds.
I'd like to voice my continued support as well. It is nice to hear from you! And as Oliver said, i think it'd be nice to have the list for visualization. Even if you just do it as plain text and not anything artsy. No matter how bare-boned, an update is always nice! I'm glad to see you in good mood and working on the balance, so keep up the good work! :)
It's all good, John. I understand you're wanting to put out the best product possible. Especially when it comes to the core book. Supplements are one thing, but if the game is literally rotten at the "core," then the whole game suffers. You and Anne just keep plugging away. I'm sure the finished product will be well worth the wait.
So the "ask us a question" box isn't working properly, there's spam on the forum that has been reported and is still sitting there, there are no updates or blog posts anymore, and the Scion 2nd Edition kickstarter is set for Tuesday or Thursday of next week, so that will be nipping at your heels. The summer video said a lot of nothing [really, just "we're working on it and trying to get it right" isn't news to us]. Things aren't looking very good in HJ-land right now. Isn't there SOMEONE who can post something other than twitter updates, to show us that this isn't a dead project? I've been trying very hard to be optimistic and patient, but I'm about at the end of my rope.
Hey purple. Done a lot of thinking about this reply since yesterday. Like I said in the video, we have limited time to work on stuff. So sometimes that means we cant fix the question box(although hopefully there are many ways to get in touch with us available), or we dont get to purge spammers in a reasonable amount of time. We used to have someone that did that for us and we dont anymore, and its difficult to allocate time to that sort of stuff when we're trying to put as much time as possible into getting everything finished.But those are just excuses and Im disheartened that they're the spammer was up so long and the question box doesnt work. That sucks and I hate it. Im sorry as a follower those are things you had to deal with, I know Id be upset too.At the moment its mostly us two person team. So the SOMEONE, is either myself or anne. But Im not really there is anything new or concrete we can tell you.Dead project though, I think it could definitely seem that way. But except for the final book all rewards are printed and in our house, I run 1-2 different campaigns of the game each week for pleasure/testing and one of the kickstarter groups got a full Saga of games online already. The games not in your hands and it should have been. I get the frustration of that. But nothing you've said isnt anything I dont think about on a daily basis. I dont at all make light of your complaints.
I appreciate that you guys always take the time to respond to concerns on here, and I really hate to come across as the grouchy dude who's always on your case. I wasn't aware that you didn't have a webmaster anymore - is that why we don't get the "monthly updates" now? And I understand that you have to work to eat and pay rent, and that work is more important in the scheme of things than the game, because one pays for the necessities and the other doesn't. But it's really tough to stay enthused about this. We had the kickstarter two years back, and we've been through "production begins" and "novels are printed" and "dice are ready" and "art is here", and we still don't have a single concrete thing for our investment, and no idea when we will get the one thing we all wanted: the Hero's Journey RPG rulebook. And, to be honest, all the discussion of the "advance PDF" didn't really help, because now it's obvious that if you stop to work on that, we have to wait even longer for the rulebook - the original impression was that there was enough done to make a preview possible, but it's pretty clear that that isn't the case. All we've had so far is a few character sheets, a preview of the art of a couple of characters, and photos of novels and dice, and that's not much payoff for the money invested. There isn't even a clear idea when we might see the book - you keep saying "we're bad at making time estimates", and I get that life gets in the way a lot. But maybe you need to say, "This book will be out by X, no matter what", and accept that it's better to put a 95% perfect book in our hands, than to keep asking people to wait just a bit longer for a "perfect" book - which will only last until the playtesters out here get their hands on it and suggest tweaks and changes that you haven't thought of, which is inevitable, no matter how good it is. Honestly, I'm not doubting your good intentions - but I want SOMETHING in my hands before another year goes by. And this will determine whether I support any further kickstarters you guys may put up in future - I doubt I'm alone in that. Thanks for reading my ravings - I look forward to your response. :-)
I agree with Purple Snit. It's been two years now...maybe it's time to say "this book will be out by December" and release what's done in December. It can't get any more perfect than it already is, and as Purple said, there will INEVITABLY be people out there who will take one look at the book and say "I'm going to house rule literally everything." From what I've seen of the games in the side bar, and the fact that you've been able to run a saga for a group of backers already, it seems like the game is good to go. If there are additional things you want to add, create an "errata" later, so that you can get started on building a franchise instead of just working on this one single corebook.I mean, honestly, I'm a little nervous. Two years ago, you guys were the toast of the Scion community, something like internet celebrities, who had a huge base. You haven't released anything in two years, which is a lifetime in internet terms. That's scary. And the longer time goes by without anything else, the harder it will be to make the franchise stick. But that's just my two cents.
Let me join the chorus of grouchy dudes for a bit.It's been two years now, and we've really not got anything to see for it. I know the advance pdf was supposed to allay our fears of this being a dead project, but that was an unmitigated disaster. We went from 'Yay, we get to finally see something!' to 'How is it possible that two years on they cannot even cobble together the base rules in six months?'. And the fact that you have avoided directly answering any of Purple's questions about the advance pdf is a pretty good indication that it is not, in fact, happening. Which means far from soothing doubts and calming the community, it only succeeded in making us question the vitality of this project further.I mean, hell, the most active thing in the HJ community for pretty much the last half a year has been the Twitter feed...and where once that was a cause for curiosity, now it's just a very cruel reminder that other people are playing this game that we paid for. I know you meant the mention of the different campaigns you're running up there to be a calming thing...believe me, it really isn't. It just hammers in two things a. that other people are playing what we want to, and b. why don't we at least get a copy of whatever they're using to run our own games? You can drop as large a 'This is not final, we may change drastically at final release' disclaimer on it as you want but it would be something at least, and that is infinitely more than we have.Two years ago you had a great large community, new backers, and no credible competition in sight...now, the most frequent commenter on the forums is a Hare Krishna preacher (whose thread is thankfully no longer there) and Scion 2e's Kickstarter is literally around the corner. I would really like to see this franchise BE a franchise someday.Anyway, there's my 1.34 rupees.
Hey everyone,Been thinking and discussing these comments for a couple hours. We need to move on to other work, but wanted you to know we read everything. We're thinking and discussing. And thank you for your feedback and concerns, we have a lot to think about.
With the Scion 2e edition roaming kickstarter with hundred of dollars collected so far, I hope for you that your game will be better because that game will eat up a lot of your fanbase and I am not even talking about your reputation.As Samudra write, if you are able to run multiple campaigns, including one with backers, the core of your game is probably ready. Cut down the stuff you are not sure about, keep it for the next supplement if you want, and send the rest to your printer so that we can finally turn the page about this kickstarter.
Actually, the Scion kickstarter has more like hundreds of thousands of dollars, it has previewed working Hunter Knacks, and the interview with one of the developers touched on using "The Hero's Journey" [original writings] as inspiration for the game. None of this is good stuff for HJ.
As harsh as it may sound, I feel like ever since Neall Raemonn Price took over the project, the only major difference between Hero's Journey and Scion 2.0 is that people can actually play Scion 2.0, and not just the privileged few on twitter. If HJ had come out in February of 2015, all of this stuff would seem derivative. Now I'm worried that HJ will just seem derivative when it comes out. Not to mention Scion 2.0's established fanbase, roaring reviews, hundreds of thousands of more dollars in its kickstarter....When is the show going to get on the road already?
@Anonymous You are right, hundred of thousand$. I didn't read their kickstarter too much since I gave up lot of money for HJ but now that you are telling me they are stealing mechanics from Hero's journey, yep pretty bad news.
Here's my guess. JSR started working with the Scion people on 2E. They came up with some great ideas. Not sure what happened to split them up, but it happened.JSR starts doing Hero's Journey. They claim they are almost done and just need funding for art, editing, and book binding.Due to signing paperwork, Scion 2E people legally own the ideas that JSR brainstormed with them. Hero's Journey gets a cease and desist letter.Suddenly Hero's Journey has to go back and redo everything to avoid the legal shenanigans.But that's just a theory. A GAME THEORY!
Since I know what broke them up, and know John and Anne personally, I can tell you that theory, while interesting, isn't really the case.The case is that John and Anne are and have always been super perfectionists who are used to working sans deadlines and without funding. They want HJ to be absolutely perfect. They've also had an extremely painful two years which has slowed their work considerably.My issue and argument is that enough is enough. The game is fine and it needs to be released NOW if it's going to reasonably compete with Scion 2.0.I also spent a lot of money on HJ when I'm dirt poor, so it stings a bit that I still don't have it when other folks have been playing it for years. So that's my gripe.There isn't a conspiracy and J&A are wonderful people, but they have an Achilles Heel (ha) and it is their perfectionism. They don't like having a fire under their butts.
This actually represents my feelings pretty well - I supported out of goodwill from JSR, didn't have a lot but chipped in what I could, and want the game in my hands. Others are playing what I helped to fund, and that really bugs the hell out of me. We need HJ sooner, not later, regardless of the reasons, or this is really going to feel like a waste of time and money.
Anonymus said: "JSR starts doing Hero's Journey. They claim they are almost done and just need funding for art, editing, and book binding."This is interresting. When I read the kickstarter and saw the release date six months later, I too thought the money was needed for Art, Editing, etc. Now two years later, we know that only half the book promised is ready. Can Anne or John have the decensy to tell us what they did during these two years? They scratched down and rewrote their stuff many times?
I get that John and Anne are perfectionists, and it's amazing that they want to put out a genuinely good game, rather than just cashing in on the vibe that games like Scion 1e created. They have their own vision and they want to showcase it in a product they genuinely think will make a mark and stand on its own. For that they have all of my respect.But when you take people's money in return for a product you aren't just on your own clock any more, and after a while delays because "it's not perfect enough" become less about not wanting to put out a substandard game (which is admirable) and more about something else.This game, what we've all seen of it, has such promise. The old JSR website was amazing. I don't think there were too many STs or players who didn't utilise it and enjoy it. John and Anne clearly have a story to tell, but my concern is that if they wait too long to tell it their audience will go home. It will never be perfect and that's OK. If nothing else it leaves the door wide open for HJ2 or an Errata compendium or somesuch, where an eager fanbase can back-and-forth the rules and the setting and generate more interest and excitement in the doing. There comes a point where perfectionism has to give way to the appreciation that people have waited a long time, have watched other people play for years in the Twitter feed (which appears to have gone quiet), and really want to celebrate with the HJ staff about the genesis of their product.Maybe cut yourselves a break, HJ, and accept that a game doesn't have to be perfect to be a lot of fun.
Release a draft to your backers. Let them nitpick it. Use that to edit, errata, and fix the things they point out. Harness your backers as playtesters. It will also buy you some time, because they will have a product in their hands.
This exact thing was supposed to be the "advance PDF" we voted on earlier this year. We don't have it, and we probably aren't getting it.
When will we be getting the next update?
I believe that you are the most amazing developers in the world when it comes to what you want to put out. I believe that you truely and genuinely care for your product and that you, at the point, probably have put many more hours into it than the funding actually afforded you. But, please listen to everyone's pleas. Please, please, pack up what you have and just send it out. We will not hate you for making an erratta later. Noone will hate you for taking 7-8 years before that erratta comes either. Even if the game has a few unbalanced sides, noone will blame you if the erratta never comes out. However, we need something. My players are deserting me and are getting hyped for Scion 2nd instead. We've been laying plans for campaigning for this game since we kickstarted it, but at this point, there'll probably be a load of pressure on me to ST scion second instead if it comes out first. Please let me play the game i have been waiting for, by the developers i love. Even if it's imperfect. Even if it's not all that you want it to be yet. Even if you think it unplayable. Even if it doesn't look good. I just want the rules. I'll figure out how to find my way around in them. I just want to play Hero's Journey. I want this game. Now. Here's a plea for everyone else, please back me on this. If they release it to us soon, and it isn't perfect, and they might not have it set up because they planned to tweak everything before making the final design, even if the rules look ugly, but are functional. Let's love them for putting it out and not keeping us waiting anymore. If they listen to this, go ''finally!'' and of course feedback good and bad is to be given, but let's not hate the obvious ''this wasn't done yet, because they didn't quite finish that part'' flaws. John and Anne. Please listen to this. Please respond. Please let me ST in your fantastic universe.
This. Pretty much where I stand on the subject. And if it isn't in playable condition by now, there's a bigger problem here. I'm fine with errata, I'm fine with house-ruling gaps, or getting updates from the site. But I (we) need a game asap.
Look on the sidebar it's playable. We should be upset that money we put down for a product is being used by other people to enjoy for themselves while we get "it's just not ready" as a constant excuse between dead zones of communication.
I'm with you, Rasmus - My players are mentioning Scion 2.0 as well, and the thought still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't spend $1500 on Scion 2.0. I didn't commit two years of excitement to Scion 2.0. I don't want to run Scion 2.0, I want to run HJ. I really just want this game to come out.
The very first thing said in this video is that they'd do better with communication for the rest of the year...
What worries me the most is that we started off with lots of "yay we're going to press soon" stuff in 2014, and since then, it's gone backwards to the point where we don't even get updates or answers any more. I'm starting to think I'm not going to ever see a book, or my money.
well, given the way Kickstarter works, you put in money out of the kindness of your heart. There are no refunds. All of the money you put into this project will either turn into a book or it will be gone forever. As someone who divested $1500 into this game, and who likes John and Anne very much, it's definitely very upsetting to this see this huge lack of communication or feedback. But upset is all I'm going to be - not only would it be not within the terms of Kickstarter to expect 'money back,' it would be nigh impossible as they've no doubt spent most of it on the Art (which is completely done, to my understanding.)As for the book, I'm going to continue to rant in the comments until we get more constructive feedback.
Kickstarter really depends on faith in the project. If you think that you are expected to make a direct commitment to the project before anyone has started to give money, that's when you should be concerned. most failed kickstarters raise thousands or millions of dollars by self-advertisment before the project even starts. john and anne have been honest with us, which is totally counter to most indie kickstarter developers that make extreme claims almost constantly.
Honestly, I have a suspicion that the money got spent on something else, and now they can't afford to print and ship the books.
I know J&A and that doesn't sound like them. The reason is almost certainly that they're super perfectionists and will never feel comfortable sharing their work unless it meets their impossible standards.
And I wouldn't have a problem with perfection if it wasn't for the fact that they have been given over $20,000 of the fans' money in exchange for a game that only a select few have gotten to play so far. After two years, and the "production begins, we're nearly ready" stuff that we got at the beginning, to be at this point, with virtual radio silence on their end, no book in sight, and zero evidence that there's anything more substantial to HJ than house rules in a binder and a few graphics, it makes it really difficult to be a good sport and a nice guy about it. Especially in light of the Scion 2nd Edition campaign, with it's numerous updates, creator feedback, and realistic timetable. At this point I honestly expect that I'm going to get my Scion 2.0 PDF before I see anything from HJ - and I might even see the Scion books first, next October. "Perfection" at this point would be to actually print and ship a book to the people who paid for it. Lots of us have pointed out that we would be okay with helping to work out any shortcomings in the game, but the longer this goes on, the more I suspect that they have had to continually re-write the rules to even make the game playable, and the lack of response does NOTHING to build up my confidence in this project. If they expect a franchise, with KS support for any future supplements, they are doing nothing to persuade me that I should back them after HJ ships [whenever that happens]. I have tried to be patient, supportive, and encouraging - but I really don't see how that's getting me anywhere. This needs to be resolved sooner rather than later, if they want to retain ANY goodwill at all.
And, again, it doesn't help that there's no word. It's been the better part of two months since the last message, the Twitter game feed is still running, but there's total radio silence and no indication that it's going to change any time soon.And, really, this isn't news to anyone. There's been a lot of discussion about the delays, the silence, and the game clearly being played. It's kind of gotten to be the same thing on repeat.What also, sadly, hasn't changed is the silence. Not a promise that things are on the way, not a brief picture of what they've been working on in the last two months where nobody could spare five minutes to post a quick message, no nothing.I find it highly unlikely that, with all the trouble they went to previously, they've simply taken the money and run. But the silence indicates that either they're not reading these comments, or that they are and simply don't want to take a few minutes to pop in, say hi, and open up some kind of running dialogue. Most of us have full time jobs, and stressful ones too, but we can still find the time to take a few minutes to check the messages here and maybe post a short five-minute message every so often. That the HJ team can't or won't take ten minutes out of a day, every so often, is concerning.
I agree with this so much. Noone can be so busy that they can't find 5 minutes in their schedules each month. And since i also REALLY doubt they'd ''take the money and run'', i can only see this as being some sort of psychological problem, either stress from the expectations locking them up or depression at not being able to deliver making communication hard. Either way is usually a valid excuse, but we need to hear something. -Especially since they're still responding in the twitter feed to the other ''character-tweets''. It hurts. (of course i'm not educated to make any sort of psychoanalysis of people, and am only stating the problems i know to have stopped me from communicating clearly with people in my life.)
If you have time to run a game every week, you have time to post something on the blog. Just sayin'.
Doesn't seem hard. Make time every week to write a short blog post as part of the work they're supposedly doing on the game. It only takes a few minutes to write stuff for facebook or whatever, and would be contact with their customers. But they don't seem to care about that.
It's been just under 3 months since we've gotten any kind of update from you guys and I'm struggling to think of the money I gave to the Kickstarter as anything other than a waste. This is unacceptable, and at this point I'm not likely to give any money to your projects in the future.
I consider this a loss. Even if published it will likely end up on the shelf relegated to games that was a good idea once. I highly doubt that even if released it will go no further than the one book, meaning that this line will see no expanions no additional resources, no additional setting material. J&A put themselves out there as business people offering a product. I have never had a job where I had a dealine and I could justify never meeting it due to being sick or any other excuse, especially when you have investor money involved. Advice... I would practice the line "you want fries with that" since it is obvious this is not the line of work is not for you.
http://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2015/10/30/washington-state-sued-a-failed-kickstarter-project-and-won... People are realizing they do not have to stand by..
people also realized that they backed projects that never had any of the things the developers promised, and then they shrugged there hands and said "who cares it's only a game".
This comment has been removed by the author.
I am sorry but I feel like the lack of communication through this whole thing had been very disrespectful to their customer/fan base. Also, when this Kickstarter came out, they gave an impression that all it needed was to be printed and sent. This has not appeared to be the case. It has been delays and excuses. Be a perfectionist all you want, but that should have been done before you asked people to spend their money. Really, not trying to be harsh, but I feel like the video with John was more of a "Sorry, not sorry, deal with it" rather than a serious apology/update to everyone who has waited patiently. I also have felt that they took the money and used it for other things aside from the project. I most definitely will never back another thing with their names behind it.
At this point, even I must join my voice in disapproval. Nearly three months and not an encouraging peep? Not cool, guys. Especially not now, when Onyx Path is working on Scion 2E, which gives everyone an alternative to what you're offering. No one has to feel beholden to this project anymore. Onyx Path has a proven track record of delivering on Kickstarter promises, so people know they can just wait a little while and get a game that's sounding at least as good as Hero's Journey.
*cough* -still waiting for my Exalted 3rd book, which was a kickstarter before Hero's Journey..... ''But Rasmus, didn't they release that for purchase already?''Sure! But i was dedicated enough to grab the Orichalcum deluxe. Not here yet. Over a month after release. Neither, i hear, is the regular deluxe. So i don't rate them much higher than John and Anne, and they're supposed to be professionals, damnit!
That was a needed rant from the bottom of my heart. I agree with the intention of your post: There's an alternative to HJ comming up, not cool that it isn't out yet.
I really think you should turn off the twitter feed.It's just taunting at this point.
This whole experience makes me sad. I've been reading back to the beginning, when the enthusiastic videos came out, when we got snippets of work in progress, when Anne said "Production begins - the end is in sight!". The novels were printed, the art was previewed, and the dice were produced - it looked promising, and I was excited to have the book in my hands. However, over the last 2 1/2 years, instead of seeing the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, we've watched as it seems to get further away - the equivalent of those horror movies where the hallway gets longer as you run down it. The monthly updates basically said nothing more than "yes, we're alive, and still working, but no, we aren't done yet", and finally stopped altogether [the last one was in June of 2016]. We stopped getting any sort of look at the actual rules or book; we just got a few graphics [which looked cool, but had no context], which worried me, because it makes me think that there is no finished work to preview. Earlier this year, we were given false hope, with discussion of a "preview PDF". We didn't get that, and I think it's obvious that it couldn't be released because there wasn't enough completed work to give to us, but that begs the question, "why even bother to tease us with the offer in the first place?". The "progress charts" revealed that, two+ years in, they didn't even have XP systems or many character archetypes completed for use. And now, we get a video that promises "better communication", and then over two months of absolutely nothing.
To say that I am disappointed, angry, and frustrated is an understatement. In fairness, Anne has written that they would do things differently if they could, because they shouldn't have had the Kickstarter at the beginning, but it's too late for that. The Kickstarter has happened, the money has been donated, and the fans [most of us probably becoming "former fans" by now] have waited for what was promised. And we still have empty hands.It's almost the full-on holiday season, so I truly doubt that any work is going to get done for the next couple of months, so now I don't think anything will come out of this until 2017, if then. The fact that there are SOME sort of rules available is shown by the Twitter feed and occasional references to other games that have been run, but those could all be set up using a bunch of house rules in a binder, and the fact that we've paid for this to happen is just salt in the wound. But the final insult, honestly, is the disrespect shown to us by the months of complete silence. No-one involved in this [and there are still several others listed on the "production team" page] has done so much as update, touch base, or utter a single comment since September 14th. I suspect that they have all gone their separate ways, as frustrated as the rest of us by the lack of an end product. It has come to the point where I am half expecting to come here for updates, and find that the web site is shuttered, and the whole thing is gone.
I don't want this to be the case; I donated because I wanted to support John and Anne in their work here, and I still want the HJ game, if it ever appears. I have tried to be positive, and many of us have offered suggestions in ways that would make things better, but when it's apparent that no-one is listening, it is very hard to stay interested and engaged. Suggestions have been made that the money is gone; that the product is vapourware; that there are legal issues with OP. All of this is speculation, but when there are no facts to counter it, what else are people supposed to think?This was my first Kickstarter campaign. It won't be the last [I have supported two others from major game companies since], but it is unfortunately the last one I will support from Hero's Journey LLC. If you are reading this, John, Anne, you have a very small window left to throw a bone to your long-term supporters. The silence is not only deafening; in this case, it could prove to be the end of your business venture.
Hey Everyone, This is just a preliminary message to let you know you're being heard. Currently talking with the other and working on a more indepth response with hopefully some more info ASAP. Alex
Hey Everyone,Working with the others at the moment to get you something concrete. This might take a few days but in the meantime I want to make myself available for questions. I won't have all the answers but I will answer what I can to the best of my abilities/knowledge and for the things I don't have an immediate answer for I will let you know and get back to you after talking with J&A.Alex
Mister,is there any kind of new preview on the way?
Annon,Are you referring to the stripped down PDF for the backers, or a preview of currently unreleased material? If the second is there anything(s) in particular you'd like to see previewed that I could inquire/push for? Suggestions are always appreciated!Alex
Mister Bosch. Id love to see a complete preview of each Pantheon specific Domain,because i'm afraid i cant really undestand it just yet
It is good to get a response from someone. I don't have any questions right now - I want to hear what news you bring us, and that will either answer all [or most] of what I need to know; or it will spawn a whole slew of new ones. I'll check back in a couple of days, and see what shakes out.
Note: Alex will post a single large reply to each of today's questions/comments tonight around 8PM EST.
This just in! Shocking development! 8PM EST was an hour ago and nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Hey Annon,I answered most of the questions asked already that I could and those I couldn't I will have to talk to J&A at the meeting! But if there is anything you'd still like to ask I am around! (I have subscribed to the this thread so I will get an email whenever you respond! )Cheers,Alex
You promised "Alex will post a single large reply to each of today's questions/comments tonight around 8PM EST."But not only were there almost no such replies, the few you wrote had no meaningful answers. You basically just said "We're still hard at work" and "I'll ask questions at the meeting!"So there was a big build up that we would be hearing something meaningful at 8PM EST. ANYTHING meaningful. Instead all we got was more stalling.
Hey Anon,I had time to reply to the comments as they came, so have been doing so. I understand the frustration of not having the answers immediately but as an international team we need to schedule discussions.There was certainly no intention of stalling on my part, I saw people being rather bothered by the lack on communication and wanted to make myself available. If there are any questions and I can answer them honestly I certainly will! But I cannot give any major announcements without talking to the others first. Alex
If you're doing questions i'd like to know what's happening with the unique systems (mythic travel, downtime, etc.) that john & anne mentioned in the past.
Bryan,Just saw below what you meant!Alex
Bryan,Could you clarify what you like to know about those subsystems? Like that they still exist?
will these subsystems be making it into the kickstarter pdf, be put into a separate document later down the line, or they being folded in to other system mechanics to save on space?
Hey Bryan,Going to have to talk to J&A about that to get you accurate details. But your question has been heard! Is there any subsystem you're particularly interested in hearing about? Alex
I'd like to know how much of the religious pilgrimage sub-system is going to make it into the core rulebook and if there is going to be a mechanical distinction between "normal" regional travel and mythically guided journeys.
My questions are all of the "when will the book be printed and shipped" and "why propose an advance PDF and not follow through" and "why has no-one been staying in touch with us until it hits crisis point" sort of questions. I'm hoping that those will have answers - game system stuff can wait, IMO.
no i'm asking if some of that content is going to be cut, because it wasn't finished when they announced the advance pdf. i've been spent my entire week having to deal with endless entitled rage and i'm getting tried of the fact that people justify it by saying that they aren't acting any more immature then anyone else. I've had it with people that have gone to war over a 3 day delay, and thats not even this community, but a group of final fantasy fans. and they didn't even bring emotions up when they started ranting and raving, but tried to tell the company to fire employees just because they didn't agree with the delay. you need to stop looking from the context of yourself and realize that not everything announced on the news is some kind of faustian compact signed in human blood. sorry about inserting that last bit in there but this is a mythology game...
Sorry, my comment wasn't aimed specifically at you, and no offense was intended. I just meant that we all need some concrete answers on the status of the main RPG book itself, not some updates along the lines of "how the Hunter archetype is going to be handled in HJ." [ As an aside, I agree that Video Gamers can be some of the worst for entitlement over delays and perceived slights and imperfections. I don't think that applies to those of us here. At least, I hope not.]
the last comment i deleted because i made a trump comparrsion, and that wasn't nice. Hero's Journey supporters at least know what they're trying to aim for, and actually have a decent groundwork to start from.
My comment wasn't even aimed at you, honestly - sorry if it seemed like it. We need concrete answers about the status of the project here, because I think many of us are very frustrated with the state of things, and I'm sincerely hoping that those are the answers we're going to get. Nothing more, nothing less.
Noted, I can tell you now I am having a indepth talk with J&A over the next 2-3 days and will be trying to get the answers you describe here. Until then I do want to act as a responding voice though and answer the questions that I can in the meantime since I understand the feeling of being unheard is there. General "where are we" though will have to wait for those talks to be finished, I do thank you for the patience and polite discourse you guys are showing each other!
And I appreciate that you are taking the time to respond to us. I have no personal issue with the other supporters here, or with John and Anne, or the other members of the HJ team. I just want to know about the game. Because of that, I have no other questions that need answering right now [though others certainly might], and I await the response in a few days. Thanks!
+1 to purple's last comment.
For the past couple years there have been a lot of broken promises from the Hero's Journey team, and in light of that I have two questions:Why should any of us who're still here believe anything that you all say in the coming days, and why should we support your works in the future if this is how we can expect to be treated?
I have no intention of supporting their works in the future. Three months without a status update is pretty much inexcusable.Even if they suddenly release the product tonight, we can't count on them as a company in the future.
Hey NotoriousSMP, What I can tell you is that the team is still hard at work.In particular the art department is working hard on layout now that we have received blessings/structuring the progression webs for the Devotional Spheres for the Hindu Pantheon at the moment!
Art layouts? Seriously? Stuff promised nearly completed two years ago. What the answers should be are "sorry" and "here's everything we've been using for our twitter-game cum slap in the face of our backers" as an apology.
Anon,We had already completed preliminary art design/layout styles but as actual content comes our way we can finalize them. The team is certainly sorry for all the delays, it's taking longer than any of us thought. I still need to talk to the others so I cannot give a timeline on releasing any assets as I don't want to promise anything and then not be able to fulfill it.Alex
That doesn't answer either of my questions. You can say that you're still hard at work all you want but we have no reason to trust or believe you. So again, why should we believe you, and why should we support your works in the future?
Notorious,I understand the skepticism, truly, I can tell you that the members of the team are committed to seeing this through to a final product we can all be proud of despite the long time it has taken us all. As to why you should trust me personally? I invested my own time, money and love into this project with no intention on ever making a personal profit and I won't off of you guys or the KS campaign so you can know this is a labour of love and passion not self interest. I have worked for free because I truly believe in this project and the good work that J&A do and will continue to work and invest in it until you all have something you can enjoy in your hands. As far to supporting the works in the future I can only speak for myself but if you enjoy the game then I hope it would inspire you to want to see more! This was a learning experience for all of us as a small independent team and any future endeavors would be taking those lessons learned into account. Alex
Anon,I would like emphasize that I am the art director, and since I am not in charge of project management I wouldn't feel comfortable making grand proclamations without J&A's approval first. I am a team member who cares about this project a great deal and want to lend my voice to the table to let you guys know there are people still working that not only care about the project but also care about your concerns and won't stop until you get something in your hands. Alex
I certainly hope that this has been a learning experience for all of you. No offense, but if your next project (whether Hero's Journey or anything else you might do) goes as abysmally as this I'd have to recommend that you all find a different line of work.The thing that most obviously needs to be fixed is the lack of transparency. Short of every team member falling into a two month and twenty-nine day long coma, three months without any kind of post on the blog and forum is, as stated above, inexcusable. Even a minor status update would be better than the nothing that we've had lately.I genuinely want to be able to enjoy the game you've been making; I wouldn't have pledged any money if I didn't. But unless Hero's Journey is truly amazing I'm going to be much more conservative with my support, if I do so at all.
Where was your voice two months ago? Where was your voice one month ago? More importantly, where are the voices of the actual project managers? They are the ones who should be down here doing damage control, not you.I appreciate that you are down here throwing yourself on the bonfire. But you're not the person who should be apologizing, the project managers are. Apologizing not only for the three months of silence, but for not following through on sending backers some playtest documents, which was the winning vote on the poll they created in the first place.
Hey guys,I am hitting the hay shortly so if if I don't get back to you immediately it's not because I am ignoring your comments. Will be around tomorrow! Alex
I just really wanna know what's left. Is John still working on tweaking blessings after 3 months? Is it just layout or what? We've been kept out of the loop for so long that we have no idea where the project stands at the moment. I for one would love to hear about where we stand so we can make some likely inaccurate assumptions for when we get the game. Please just give us something.
Read the update of November 7, 2014. It talks about finalizing art layouts. Now we're told they are just now doing that? Can we please cut the crap and be honest with the investors - what is going on? We're do we stand? Is this a real book or a lot of bs? Did they print once, realize it was too close to Scion second, and have to start over? Is the money gone? Why hasn't anyone kept up on this until it hit panic stage?
Re: LayoutThe design/look of the book is all but final. The current layout work is optimizing space as finalized content comes our way. For instance Blessings and how to best organize and fit them in the book .Alex
Offer a pdf without art and real formatting to the backers. Do what 3E Exalted does, or Onyx Path and get the product out to the people.
I still think there was a cease and desist from Onyx Path. :D
I really hope not, because that's an explanation that would have sorted everything out; "Hey everyone. We're really sorry but, a year and a bit in, we've had a cease and desist from OP and now we need to start over. We really wanted to have the game done shortly but now we need to start over.".That would not only have been communication of some (any) kind but also a very plausible reason for the delay and something understandable, that would probably have generated plenty of support. Which would mean that the problem wasn't a cease and desist, it's a lack of desire to communicate at all.
I think the frustrating aspect of this entire affair is that there was a community centered around active communication through both text and video - and that community is what was used as the foundation to launch a game that was promised to be nearly completed save for artwork and a few rough spots in purview designs.That was two years ago. Now, I understand that perfectionism is a virtue to strive for - after all, it's your name on a product and I have spent weeks and months spent on presentations and reports that have my name branded with them. However, you're two years late. No company would accept this horrific procrastination with that sort of excuse as the buffer. A week? Sure. A month? All right, you're treading on ice - a year? No. Unacceptable.Kickstarters fail, that's an inevitable side-effect of this source of crowd-funding - bu t what's the difficult aspect of this is that we were told "it's nearly done". Now, the conspiracy theory about the cease and desist might not be exactly true, but with Callings (Scion 2E) and Archtypes (HJ) appearing almost identical, there's enough of a basis to be concerned that perhaps J&A were told to rewrite certain mechanics - which on its own would be disappointing, but would have made this two-year wait much more understandable and sympathetic.However, the lack of communication and outreach save for a promise to "talk about it in the next meeting" is unacceptable for customer service and encouraging loyalty to a brand. It's been three months since a video promising more reliable feedback, and then dead silence. The response should have been "here, a view-only drive access to our backers so you can get started" and then allow your backers to feel validated in playtesting - and if that's impossible then something is seriously wrong in terms of where the game is currently at.
Given that the Twitter game has been running forever I don't know that it's a matter of there not being enough of a game to show the backers. Sure, I'm certain the game rules have been tweaked along the way, but there's clearly enough of a system to play with or the game wouldn't still be in play.Alex has been very kind to make communication, especially as he had to know he was risking (and gratefully hasn't seemed to have gotten) one Hell of a flaming from the more angry backers. And I'm certain he's mentioned it to the production team. I'm sure that the production team are aware that they didn't make good on their promises of communication, and that a desire for some word has been asked for, insisted on, even demanded, and there's still no word.But neither of these points are new. We've all made them.I'm wondering if the lack of communication is less some kind of conspiracy of silence or lack of care and more that feeling you get when you know you should have done something and that now people are angry, so you put off talking to them. You promise yourself you'll do it tomorrow, but they're still angry and so you put it off more and more until it's gotten crazy long and you still can't bring yourself to pop your head up and make contact because now you realise you've left it way, way, too long.
I think you're probably right, Squee. I think there's also a few other things adding to it.1) the game is not as complete as everyone expects it to be by this point. It's playable, but nowhere near the level of quality or shine as it should be two years in (that have been written off as perfectionism.)2) there are only a few things that J&A feel comfortable "spoiling." These are the aspects, talents, and the theory of archetypes (though not the archetypes themselves.) They are dangerously secretive about their project, which is flat out ridiculous in a crowdfunded project where we own Hero's Journey just as much as they do (in theory.)3) John and Anne are used to working on projects for free, on their own time, and ignoring the Internet's begging for more content because they used to do it for free. They still have this mentality even when we have paid a significant amount of money to make this happen.It's a recipe for Hell.
Thank you, Squee. You've managed to phrase what i'm thinking perfectly. I was about to lay into two (new names, strangely) further up that was yelling at Alex, though he was actually getting in touch with us. I, of course, think people should be disappointed and probably have lost their trust in John and Anne, but i wish they'd be as civil as you about it. Because i've known that feeling of letting someone down and putting off talking to them. It's not easy. It's a weak excuse, of course, but a rather relateable one. And if that's what's really happened, snapping the head off of the first person to actually stick it out, will definitely not solve the no-communication crisis.
Oh no, Alex was incredibly brave to face an angry fan-base, and while there is ... disappointment and frustration in my post, I have all the respect for having to be the messenger.
As much as I am happy to see Alex posting, he is three month late and he bring nothing. We ask for dates, playtest documents and update about the release and all he say is: I would ask the team and come back. Seriously that ridiculous. It should be Jon and Anne that should be responding to our rage.
Well, that was a waste of time, money and enthusiasm. Sad to see it go, but I doubt I'll see any of those again in relation to this game. Shame, really.
Granted American thanksgiving was in the mix this week, but Alex said he would need "2-3 days" to meet with John and Anne, to get us some answers. It's now been seven days, and he's gone silent as well. I do not take this as a good sign. I will check back later today to see what [if anything] changes here.
I cannot see this ongoing silence from ALL parties involved as being anything but bad news...
Honestly, at a guess, I'd have to say there's no game. There's art. I believe Alex when he said that the art was being worked on and was close to finished. But I don't know that there's a game system and the accompanying text to go with it.That appears to be the only logical conclusion as to how the art department has spoken up saying that their work is carrying on but nobody who's involved with text or mechanics has so much as said boo.I think at this stage the kindest thing is for someone to confirm and just have the bad news out. Even a one line 'There's no game. We're sorry.' and then another retreat to not reading the blog or the boards. At least there's some kind of closure, investors can see that this is simply one of those Kickstarters that didn't work out, and everyone can move on. Including the writers. I can't imagine having this pressure on to communicate, to produce a product that can't be produced, is easy to bear.If there's bad news, just say so. Then it's in the open, everyone can be upset for a short while, then move on with their lives. The HJ crew too.
If there's no game, what are people tweeting about then? :/
The Scion introduction, Of Shadows Yet To Come, was technically something you could *play* but it wasn't a full game. It was just as much an outline of some ideas as a full system. Enough to play a basic game with but nothing you could slap between two covers and market as a full game.
Which is basically the "house rules in a binder" theory I mentioned - enough to play with your friends, but not enough to print and sell. We were told the art was done a year or so back, except for the npc sketches for some backers, and it's "layouts" now. Which they were also supposed to be finishing two years ago. I'm thinking Alex has uncovered more than he expected when he started talking directly to J & A, which is why he's gone silent. But now this has been called "vapourware" on the Scion forums at OP, which is bad PR all around. I think it's pretty much dead, if not yet buried. Which is a shame.
Hey John and Anne, what's it like knowing that you've pissed away all of the goodwill you've built up over the years because of your utter failure with this pile of garbage? Just kidding, I know you never read these comments so I don't expect an answer from you.And Alex has proved that, despite his words, he's not someone who can be trusted either. "Oh, I'm going to talk to John and Anne in the next couple days and get back to you guys." Bull. Fucking. Shit. Even with Thanksgiving going on you should've been able to at least give us some kind of update. I mean, we would've known that any of your claims need to be taken with a whole mine of salt, but at least you could've pretended that you still give a fuck about your supporters.And now for a joke: Hero's Journey!Another one: What's the difference between John and Anne and Bernie Madoff? When Madoff committed fraud, he got punished for it.
Decided to watch the video again, because I like hearing obvious lies. Basically the only thing in there that I know isn't a lie is when John says that he's bad at scheduling and noticing your failures. You didn't improve your communication, you've given us no information about your progress, and you're clearly not sorry about any of this because you haven't changed anything.If the game is dead just tell us so we can get on with our lives. It's now been over a week without any kind of response from any part of your team, and even longer since we've heard from John and Anne. Frankly at this point I'm starting to think that my earlier theory about a three month long coma isn't impossible.I mean for fucks sake, back when you were doing JSR that was more a hobby than anything else and we still got regular posts on a variety of topics, not just status updates, but now that it's your full-time job we get silence? What kind of insane logic is that?
''and you're clearly not sorry about any of this because you haven't changed anything.''Faulty logic. Doesn't mean i'm not upset either. But yelling at people like that doesn't really help anything, but put everyone else in a worse mood, does it now?Especially since you're so sure John and Anne won't be reading it, really it only serves to annoy the rest of us. So please, by all means, feel that the game is dead. If anything significant happens, i'm sure it'll come as an email as well, so you don't have to check up in here if it only makes you mad. Have a nice day.
Sure it does. Yelling is very cathartic."providing psychological relief through the open expression of strong emotions."
I agree with Rasmus - further yelling and threats serve no purpose. We're all angry and frustrated, and you aren't helping anyone. If you have nothing else to contribute, then please stop posting unless/until something changes.
This is not the first Kickstarter project that has taken longer than expected. In fact, projects taking longer than expected is almost par for the course for Kickstarter.The real point of condemnation is the silence from the developers, especially after votes in favor of releasing early playtest documents, and promises to have greater communication.Now personally, I don't mind losing $20 or $40. But the people who dropped $100+, or god forbid the guy who spent $1500? They have every right to be vocal about their discontent.
Yeah because being quiet and polite has worked so well in the past few months hasn't it? Just look at all the quality updates we've had in the past week alone.And as for 'yelling serving no purpose', we only got a response from Alex (worthless though it was) because several people, including Purple Snit, Rasmus, and myself, made posts on here in the last couple weeks. Maybe if we keep doing that we'll actually get a response that tells us something useful.And Purple? I've made no threats in any of the comments I've made lately, and I don't appreciate you lying by saying I did.
You haven't posted anything in the 2 1/2 years of this project, then suddenly turn up a couple of weeks back. You have joined in with only your accusations of fraud and "Bull. Fucking. Shit." You have been hostile, rude, sarcastic, and, yes, threatening in your tone and allegations. You have succeeded in achieving nothing useful in any of your tirades, and I'm inclined to suspect that you are a troll jumping in and trying to make the situation worse than it already is. We already know that we are being ignored, and that this is most probably a dead project. We don't need Bernie Madoff comments and blatant hostility to make this worse. Results (such as they were) came from reasoned frustration and disappointment - they won't come from insults and finger-pointing.
Please do not attempt to invalidate his experiences and emotions based on posting frequency. That is a fallacy and you know it.
I'm sorry if I've come across as rude and threatening, it wasn't my intention. And I'm certainly not a troll. I'm just frustrated because I, like many of you, put a not insignificant amount of money into this project and gotten nothing back.But fine, I'll stop posting here. Best of luck to the Hero's Journey team, but I won't be supporting you in the future.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they've failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To this right, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:- They post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned.- They work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that's communicated to backers.- They're able to demonstrate that they've used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised.- They've been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers.- They offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they're unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
When this deteriorates to the posters getting angry with each other, and long (legitimate) posts about the legal obligations of the creators/rights of the contributers, I think we can pretty much call it dead, guys. I put in around $200 here, which I now do not expect to see again, unfortunately. Nothing short of a book in my hands (along with everything else I paid for) will be acceptable at this stage.
I just want to apologize for my behavior yesterday. I was angry at a variety of things and when I saw that there'd been no updates/responses here in the last week I let my anger take over. That's no excuse though, I should have known better than to do that.I'm still going to remove myself from this site for at least a while however, that seems like a better idea than being miserable every time I check to see if there's been an update.
Hey, i know better than many how it feels to let rage take over. I can be a real bitch sometimes. So, just, no hard feelings from me. I hope you have a nice time out there :D
So. Either Alex lied to us, hoping to buy time, and that failed, so he's gone away again. Or Alex went to talk to J&A, and they told him to fuck off, and he has nothing to report and has gone away again. Or they are stalling him with BS until he leaves them alone. Or they showed him how little is actually done, and he's decided to get out of dodge before everyone gets sued. Because it's been TWO WEEKS, not 2-3 days, and nothing. What a load of horseshit.
At this point, I must concur with Anonymous. I was willing to accept that the aforementioned meeting between John and Anne and Alex may have been delayed by Thanksgiving plans. Now? It's been a full week since Thanksgiving weekend. If they were serious about getting the word out to people, they would've found the time in a full week to do so. At this point, credibility is pretty much circling the drain. Even if there was some legitimate reason for the delay? Being out of town? An illness? An extremely busy work schedule over the last couple weeks? The decent thing to do would be to at least let us know of this legitimate reason for the delay. Instead? Nothing but silence. No reason at all to continue believing that there will EVER be a game or even news of same. Being delayed by unexpected problems is one thing. Making ZERO effort to communicate with the people whose money you took and continue to assure them that their patience will be rewarded soon enough? That's just unacceptable.
Yeah, I have to agree. I've tried to keep a small bit of my optimism alive, hoping that I'm going to check here one day and get a pleasant surprise, but I have to admit, I really don't think that's ever happening at this point. This seems to be a pattern here; throw bone to angry fans ["Advance PDF" poll, Alex promising information], go silent, repeat. Even if Alex hasn't been able to get us something concrete yet [for whatever reason you like], there's no real excuse for him just disappearing on us again, unless he discovered this really is vapourware, and he doesn't want to get caught in the mess. And I don't blame him if that's the case. We've told John and Anne repeatedly that we would be understanding of a medical emergency, a hard-drive crash, a natural disaster, or any other such thing, and we've repeatedly been given assurances that it's nothing like that.
So we're left with the inescapable conclusion that they've completely fumbled the ball, that the game is nowhere near completion, either because of a lawsuit, creative block, lack of ability to stick to deadlines, or whatever other reason you can think of, and that they just don't have the fortitude to come here and tell us what's really happening. I don't think the game exists at this point, and I don't think it ever will, either. I'm still in this for a hardcover, PDF, art, dice, novels, and shipping, so IF this ever does get finished, I still want what I paid for, just on principal, but my support is done. This may have been the shortest and least satisfying Hero's Journey ever.
Hey Guys,The reason I have been quiet is I havn't had anything concrete to give you at the moment that wouldn't be repeating myself. I can say I have not discovered anything that would shake my confidence that this project isn't still on it's way. We in the art department just finished one project we were working on two days ago and just received something new to work on this morning from J&A. So we are still moving.What I cannot do is give solid dates or projects or talk on J&A's behalf. I want to leave those kind of announcements for them. Alex
And now, a sentence by sentence break down of everything wrong with that message:-"The reason I have been quiet is I havn't had anything concrete to give you at the moment that wouldn't be repeating myself." - First, you see your erstwhile fans asking for concrete stuff and you begin with an admission that nothing concrete can be given. Can you see how this might not be helping? And then you say you don't want to repeat yourself and proceed to repeat your earlier points with no hint of self awareness."I can say I have not discovered anything that would shake my confidence that this project isn't still on it's way." - I'm not sure if you've noticed Alex, but YOUR confidence in this project is not the one crumbling away to dust with every passing moment."We in the art department just finished one project we were working on two days ago and just received something new to work on this morning from J&A." - What are they? Show us. You can't tell us content is being made and then expect us to leave it at that, not anymore."So we are still moving." - I'm sorry, but we are just not at a point where we can take this claim seriously anymore. We have asked and asked and asked for some cocrete proof of this...and received nothing. An assurance that things are moving is hard to take when no things are evident. Telling us things are happening is not cutting it anymore...it hasn't been cutting it for a long time, and I don't know why I have to tell you this when the 120+ comments above are making this very loud and clear."What I cannot do is give solid dates or projects or talk on J&A's behalf." - Sorry again, but by being the only person associated with this project who is saying anything at this point, you ARE speaking on John and Anne's behalf. Unless John and Anne literally do not know you're saying these things because they've stopped reading these comments."I want to leave those kind of announcements for them." - If you cannot see how this sentence encapsulates everything wrong with the state of this project then I give up. WE ARE NOT GETTING THESE ANNOUCEMENTS! We hav not been getting these annoucements, or, for that matter, any communication from John and Anne at all for so long I've stopped keeping track. Unless we actually get some announcements from them, and announcements regarding the things you just said in the last sentence you couldn't talk about? Hero's Journey will be dead. I don't care how many art projects you complete, I don't care how many 'things' apprently are 'going' I don't care how strong your personal confidence might be...this game will not have a fanbase to play it anymore, and all the confidence in the world will not save it.I really, really hope somebody on this team gets a goddamned clue.
There's a thing we do in Nursing. If you tell a patient you'll be back in 45 minutes, you better be back in 45 minutes. If you tell a patient you'll have X item next time, you better have/remember to get an aide to pick up X item.You don't make promises and then don't follow up on them. This is basic customer service, and Nursing isn't as community-dependent as a start-up roleplaying game is.So you have confidence still in a project where everything else feels like dead air? That's great. Why? You can give details without breaking NDA or state-wide secrecy. Was it a conversation with J&A? Was it a new breakthrough in a mechanic? Give us reasons because you specifically promised answers and right now you have bupkis."I want to leave those kind of announcements for them." - this is a cop out. If there are questions you can answer, you answer them. Mentioning that you have answers but won't share them is like throwing water on a grease fire - you're just making the situation worse.Not to mention, right now Scion 2nd Edition hit a point in their kick starter that they'll allow for the licensing of fan-made content for the game line, which will threaten the future profitability of the HJ line because promises weren't made.
In essence, Alex just told us that John and Anne won't give him any information, either. All he's allowed to say is that the art is "still moving", whatever that means. They still can't/won't address us directly, they won't face the frustration and anger here directly, and they won't honour their own commitments to "better communication" EVEN THROUGH A PROXY.This was an opportunity to appease a few people, to throw us that bone I mentioned before. Instead, we've just been handed the same bullshit story about how things are still going ahead, with absolutely no reason to believe anyone involved is being straight with us. I have tried to be the voice of [relatively] calm reason, here, but I have finally crossed the line to pissed right off, because the lack of respect they are showing to those of us who PAID FOR THIS PROJECT is inexcusable.
Purple,I have gotten information from them which is what we are working on right now- I just don't have deadlines for you. We currently are working on finishing up the blessings web now that the blessings themselves are wrapping up.I get that you're angry but it should be at me, as I am the one who chose to come out here and engage with you guys. There HAVE been art delays but that's on me not J&A. I have a full time job which while I realize isn't an excuse have chosen to invest my own money in hiring additional labor to help move things quicker on my end to deal with that.Obviously art isn't the only issue but it's certainly a factor. With this hired labor I do hope to move things faster.
So you are telling us the book is written but the project have been delayed because of the Art department?
You're very brave to write ''please, be angry at me'' on this forum at this point. Anyways, i still agree with all the frustration, and would love if you'd just throw a couple of art things up? Anything finished that we haven't seen would be the best. Whatever John and Anne has you working on, mabye just progress sketches in different stages of completion?You know. Something. Anything.
"I get that you're angry but it should be at me, as I am the one who chose to come out here and engage with you guys."Erm, no... We should totally be angry with the developer duo who promised better communication and have given us nary a peep for nearly four months now. Also, please explain something to me, given that you're apparently in contact with them regularly... Do John and Anne even read these comments anymore? And if they do, how are they justifying not replying to us even after all this.The fact that you specifically noted that you're doing this on your own initiative makes me question if J&A even know what you're doing... Have you told them? Do they know we've been asking for a reply from them for so long? Are you scared to tell them because you know they wouldn't care?And finally, we've said this many many times before... One of the best ways to pacify the erstwhile fans would have been to release whatever material they're using to run the Twitter games and let us critique them... Which would have required no art, so you're attempt to explain the lack of any fulfilling updates with that excuse just falls flat.
The thing is, I'm not asking for "deadlines". I don't honestly think I ever have. [Though I suggested they impose a deadline on THEMSELVES, if that would motivate them to get the book out before 2018, which is kind of the same thing, I suppose.] Look, I've tried to write an RPG myself, and it's friggin' tough - I get that. What's pissing me off is that we aren't getting ANYTHING anymore. John essentially flat-out lied to us in the video above, by saying communication would be better, because it's gotten absolutely WORSE since then. We didn't assume that's what he meant - it's what he said. And now, nothing. I'm a working married father of three with a special needs child, and I have time to post on here [and elsewhere], so I have to assume that if they can't take the time to put up some sort of update, or preview, or that damned "advance PDF", it's because they just don't give a fuck. And I notice that you haven't clarified what your status is; is it that they won't tell you anything, or is it that there's nothing to tell? Because unless there are some updates here PDQ, you can't blame us for being pissed right off at being left hanging in silence.
Purple,I am certainly not trying or intending to invalidate your feelings or frustration on the matter. I 100% get it, I am merely trying to explain where I am coming from for a little context from myself and let you know that there are real people working on the project for you right at the moment.As for what my status is? I am in daily contact with J&A and they are sending us stuff to finish (and at a faster rate).
I never said that there weren't real people out there working. What's pissing off the supporters/contributors, is that there has been no information from the people behind the game since June this year, with the exception of the video above. No graphs, no previews, no art, no sign of any progress that we can see, and no information from anyone [and that, unfortunately includes you, because you haven't really given us anything besides telling us the art is still being worked on]. The constant assurances that "we're still working" just don't mean anything after all this time. Being told different things at different times by the people behind this hasn't helped, either. If you want to soothe the hostility, I'm afraid that there needs to be more than "I'm trying, and the art's still coming along".
It's good that you are in contact with them. Perhaps you could pass on to them that they need to be in contact with US. Everyone was being fairly patient as long as we were getting signs that something was still being done. It was the silence [which is on-going to this day] that really stirred up the hostility. At this point, it just feels like they are avoiding us, and that looks like an attempt to dodge the entire issue. They don't answer anything, and that leads to speculation, and more hostility, and it just feeds itself. It's going to take John and/or Anne to put this fire out, I'm sorry to say.
More than avoiding us, they have an active raiding schedule in World of Warcraft. Not a day passes that I do not see their guild (and sometimes John himself) advertising for more raiders.There was nothing wrong with this in the beginning. You put in your 40 hours of work and enjoy your free time. But after almost four months of silence now, you can skip one night of raiding to write an update.
That's pretty much the sticking point. It's that they *could* be in touch but they choose *not* to be. And it occurs to me that maybe they're working really, really, *really* friggin' hard because rather than offer up the same "We're working on it. We hope to have some new stuff to show you soon." stuff as they've been giving for the last few years they actually think they can have it finished and want to present it as some kind of a big surprise.Except that where that might have worked if there was the same kind of communication there had been, and where some of the more vocal people were like "Dude, come on." in that world weary way, those same people would have suddenly been thrilled and surprised when J&A went "Tah dah! Ha! We got it all done!" and it would have been happy days.If that happened now, I really don't know that there would be a big, cheerful, happy days result. So even if they *have* been quiet so they can get it all rushed through and done, the hard feelings that that's caused may not lead to the glorious ending they might have been hoping for.So many RPGs don't make it in the market because they're, being frank, not all that good. Their systems are savagely broken, or the premise just isn't very good. I think this might be the first one that I've ever seen that might turn out a (possibly) fantastic premise and a system to beat all systems and still fall on its face due to alienation of its customer base.*That's* the clock that's ticking. The greatest, most perfect, most "I'm a perfectionist which is why it took so long but even I think this game is perfect" game doesn't mean much if there's nobody left who wants to buy or play it.
You hit the nail on the head. Worse is, even if the game is perfect and beautiful, the negative word of mouth regarding customer service will be a permanent stain on reviews.And sadly, that could have been prevented with a little more communication.
Heck, it is even worse on Kickstarter. The update they provided here in June didn't make it there until September.
This game will be doom the day Scion 2e hit the shelves. After that, if it is release, it would alway be the second one. Worse, if the mechanic are similar, the pale copy.
Another 18th has passed.*Cricket, Cricket*
I wonder if we'll be getting an end of year update.
I highly doubt it. I honestly don't think they care. I don't understand how you can be a perfectionist about the game and not about the communication. I work with deadlines and projects every day. Communication is key to projects. I wish I never had backed this game.
Oh well. Guess we didn't.
I wasn't surprised, tbh.
From the Kickstarter Page: "...it's possible that the game's production and release might be delayed for any variety of reasons. If that happens, we'll not only let you know what's happening and why things have been delayed, but also keep you updated on our plans to move forward and any new projected times we set."Somehow, I think this was forgotten by the creators of this project. So much for 2016...
More than a month since we got ANYTHING from anyone in authority. And that was just "We're still working! Promise!" Wow. Just.......wow!
Does anyone know a lawyer that can handle this kind of stuff? Somebody has to represent cases like this, even if they are pretty new.
As it has now passed the five-month point since the video above promised "better communication", and the forum is getting more and more cluttered with spam that never gets removed, and the twitter feed is starting to contain news reports instead of game reports, and folks here have reported that even direct PMs to John and Anne are being ignored, and Alex has dropped off the feed once again [to be fair, in the face of justified anger that he was apparently unable to deflect with anything concrete], perhaps it is time for this place to shut down completely. It doesn't really matter at this point what the facts are; we have offered numerous olive branches of support and compromise, of understanding if it's a personal tragedy, or if the hard drive with all the notes was lost, or even if they just hit burn-out stage and needed a break. We, the supporters who pledged over $20,000 to this company and game, have done everything we could, I think, to be patient and reasonable.
And our reward, as it stands today, is to be completely ignored and disregarded by the entire creative team involved in this venture. We have been told that the art project is apparently continuing - but that hardly maters, since there's absolutely no reason to believe that the game itself exists. House rules? Yes, because something was used for the sagas that certain privileged backers got. But a playable game? I no longer think that such a thing exists - I certainly don't see any evidence of it. Some might say that I'm being too harsh, but when there is a five-month period of complete silence from the people responsible for everything more tangible than art layouts, why should any of us be anything less than harsh? As was pointed out above, there was a promise made by Anne to be transparent and update us if anything went wrong. That promise has been broken. Now, we are seeing the first whispers of "Class Action lawsuit" to recover our funds, and allegations of backer fraud, leaks, and legal issues with Onyx Path. All of this could be put to rest if just one of the creators would be honest and reasonable enough to spare 30 minutes out of their week to give us some sort of update, something that contains more than "We hear you, we'd be frustrated too, we have a lot to think about". As the backers who paid for this shit-show, we do have a right to expect and request [and even demand] that something substantive be released by the company. We have stated our willingness to compromise, but you can't compromise when it's a one-sided exchange.
If anyone connected to this matter has anything useful to say, I urge you to speak up, regardless of your position. Alex tried to put out the fires, but all he did was give the impression that his good intentions were snuffed out by a refusal on the part of Anne and John to share any information with him. Either that, or they invoked an NDA to shut him down, which is still worrying in itself. Why stop someone from making your backers happy? Why prevent that person from putting out the flames? It doesn't make sense unless the game is dead, either because of personal difficulties, or because of complete burnout on the part of those writing it. Even if the game were released at this point, even if it turns out to be a great game, I know that I, for one, will not support this company with my money again. I know that many of us here are so angered and insulted by the lack of contact that there isn't any way to re-establish a healthy rapport with us again. The waters have been poisoned. It didn't have to be that way, but the months of silence have ensured that it is so. I don't expect a response to this missive; I'm just getting it off my chest. I was enthusiastic and gung-ho when this project started. Now, I just regret that I wasted my money on it.
So now we get Christian, anti-abortion tweets in the feed instead?Wow, guys. Why not just close it up already, since it's really obvious that you aren't even paying attention at all any more.
It seems like somebody's reading these comments because it looks like the political tweets have been removed from the twitter feed.And yet no response to any of our comments or questions from anyone on the HJ team. Interesting priorities there.
The thing that has me confused is the Twitter feed. If this is a dead project, I get that they might want to keep playing their game (after all it's been running for ages) but if John and Anne have decided to just dump the project what is the point at all of the players continuing to update the Twitter feed? Why not just quietly disappear? Why keep updating the game's Twitter feed? It's not as if the game needs to be hyped any more with fun examples of the game's enjoyability. We're clearly never going to see the end result so no hype is required. What does continuing to post game stuff on Twitter achieve, aside from pointless trolling? Frankly I can believe the game developers to be the types to just disappear and avoid all the negativity by just not engaging. I didn't really think they were the type to actually troll. The Twitter updates serve no real purpose except to infer that the game is still alive and active, which is something any of the game's developers could have confirmed with a simple post.What gives?
I don't think the Twitter feed has had anything HJ-related in several months.
None of it makes sense, and I'm wondering if there ever really was a game, or just novels, art and a few dice. Unlike Scion 2nd, we've never had any rules previews, the characters in the twitter feed are from their old Scion campaign, and the few charts and sheets we've seen have no context at all. Now, the twitter stuff doesn't even look like it's game-related at all. I have no idea what to make of it.
You speculated awhile ago that all the "production team" had were notes in a binder. I think this is likely the case, and I suspect that the previews we got were nothing more than transcriptions of those notes.At this point, I don't think any of us backers expect the game, but I imagine almost all of us want some closure. I'd even take a "Hey, it was a hoax all along" (though I don't think it was). I didn't invest much in the game (because I didn't have much), but I feel like we're all owed an explanation. Though I imagine that debt, like the promises of this particular Kickstarter, will go unfulfilled.
I invested somewhere around $200 with extras and shipping. And I don't really have it to spare. But I believed that the good work of JSR would carry over to this project. Now, I look back and see a complete lack of substance through most of the last two years, and the lack of communication is just bringing that into sharp relief.But I note, curiously, that the twitter feed and spam are suddenly corrected, and wonder what that could mean?Is there someone reading this after all?
If that can make you feel better Purple Snit, I invested like 500$ and There is people who give up much more since their high rewards were all taken.I guess they are still reading but they are waiting for a good new, just to avoid backslash reaction like when Alex post. All this would have been avoided by constant updates. Anyway their futur as game designer would forever be tainted by this Kickstarter.
And I correct myself - the twitter feed is fixed, and still apparently showing the game that some lucky few get to play, but the spam is still cluttering up the forums. More evidence of the cobwebs in this place.
This is not a joke. Does anyone know a Class Action Lawyer who can handle something like Kickstarter? We need to reach out to one and find out their fees / percentage cut / how we go about serving notice.
No. I am frustrated by this development, as much as many of you guys, mabye slightly less than the loudest. I must admit that i feel a lot worse treated by the Exalted Third Edition, than by Heros Journey. I've backed 700$ into this project and 375$ into Exalted 3rd. In this i knew from the get-go that i was backing two untested game-designers, based on their previous amazing work on house-ruling. I haven't gotten their book. They've stopped communicating. That's frustrating as fuck. I might never get this book. That's even worse. But then again, i knew they weren't expirienced when i first backed, it's a kickstarter. Kickstarter has already been a hit or miss, there's been tons of kickstarters that hasn't delivered, that's the risk you take. If you don't want to trust them again, i totally get that. But you know who else hasn't delivered my reward? Exalted third edition. I've ordered the Orichalcum Deluxe Edition, because i enjoy having collectors stuff. Exalted went YEARS overtime with the only updates being as-good-as-nothing ''Still in second draft'' And now, half a year after Third Edition is out, i still haven't gotten my book. The past 2½ month has been ''We're having trouble getting the pages gilded'' and 2 weeks ago i saw a picture of the finished books. Still no shipping notice though. Point is, sometimes projects run late by far, sometimes they die out, but that is a part of the risks of kickstarting something. Everyone using kickstarter should be aware of that.
Not to mention March Against Darkness, who even closed down their beta forums. It's 3 months later than Heros Journey. I'll update you when i hear anything about that game going out of ''Beta'' (that's unreachable right now) and actually gets sent to me. That too was by someone who claimed much more expirience and professionalism than John and Anne ever did.
Here. I found a quote from Kickstarter's ''Trust and Safety'' section. ''Some projects won't go as planned. Even with a creator's best efforts, a project may not work out the way everyone hopes. Kickstarter creators have a remarkable track record, but nothing's guaranteed. Keep this in mind when you back a project.''
Failing a kickstarter project is a thing, running away is another. That's a lack of professionalism to not update us even if it is to tell us they wont deliver the book.It's a shame that we have reach the point that we need to sue them to get informations.
I, for one, will not participate in any legal action. Especially anything suggested by someone ''anon''. But i am frustrated, a lot. Luckily i have other systems i can play, and there's loads to be excited about in the future too. We learn the most from our mistakes, after all.
That being said, i think i'll withdraw from this forum now. There doesn't seem to be anything constructive happening here, and looking at people yelling things that has already been stated puts me in a sour mood. At least be decent, like Purple Snit and post with dignity.
We shouldn't accept and normalize bad behavior just because 'we knew the risks'. What you do is contact a lawyer, and then the onus of proving that they spent the funds correctly is on them.If they did invest the funds correctly, and were not negligent in their responsibilities, then they are in the free and clear. The legal terminology for Kickstarter does specify that they are only liable if they have been found to be negligent and/or wasted the money.So asking to get a Lawyer involved is not about punishing them or getting our money back. It's about making sure they actually followed the rules and acted in good faith.
I suggest that everybody chill out now. John and Anne have abandoned the project, and moved on to other things in their lives. Kickstarter permits that kind of lack of accountability - it was, indeed, what we signed up for. I donated over one thousand dollars - I'm fairly certain I donated the second most of anyone - for this project, when I was working for peanuts and living in my parents' house. It hurts me to the core to watch this project crash and burn. It hurts me even worse to admit that I will probably be purchasing Scion 2e when it comes out, which will probably be before there's another update on Hero's Journey other than "End of Summer Update."It really sucks. If you don't want to reward "bad behavior" never back another product made by Hero's Journey again. But as for the money put into this project, it is gone.
I agree with everything that Rasmus and yourself have said Jacob. I am disappointed that things have seemingly not worked out, and I'm sad that we've not been kept in the loop as backers, but it's sort of the risk of Kickstarter. It sucks, but, well, I hope John and Anne are doing okay at least and nothing bad has happened to cause all of this.
To Jacob: Just out of curiousity, do you know for a fact that the project is abandoned, or are you just presuming that this is the case (as many of us are)? I ask not to be difficult, but out of a sincere desire to know.
I'm just presuming this is the case. We haven't heard anything from John and Anne since August. It's February of the following year. If they haven't made even one significant breakthrough in six months, it's pretty clear that this has become the most side of side projects, if it is even still a project at all.
Meanwhile, they happily post about Magic the Gathering, ramble on about raiding in WoW, and have a grand ol' time doing everything but what they promised.
You know, if anyone wants to have a day off, or leisure time playing Wow or MtG, that's not an issue - I never expected them to be chained to a desk. It's the disregard for the project and investors (shown in a lack of accountability and updates) that gets my goat. But I have to ask - if it's dead and gone, was Alex lying to us? Are they lying to Alex? Why work on art layouts for something that doesn't exist, and isn't going anywhere? Why have others doing so if you have no book to put the art in to? Something doesn't quite add up here.
So at this point I'm pretty sure they aren't going to respond to anything we might post here or on the forums, for whatever reason they have, but people have gotten responses on Kickstarter itself recently. So one thought that occurs is that maybe if a lot of people send them messages there asking for an update they'll actually respond to those?At this point we have basically nothing left to lose so why not just send them a message? If they respond with something more credible than "we hope to update soon" then great, and if not then at least we'll know that they have no intention of continuing the project.
Uhm, you mean the messages from January last year? :P I don't see any new responses on kickstarter.
Ah, I meant a private message on Kickstarter. On a whim (and out of desperation) I sent them a message a couple weeks ago asking whether the project was dead or not and got a response last week saying that they hoped to get an update to us "soon", but since I haven't gotten a response to my follow-up question about what "soon" meant to them it could literally mean anything from by the end of the month to sometime in April.So send them a message, maybe they'll respond with more info than they gave me and we can piece together something that resembles an actual answer.
Just send the unfinished product. Obvious it is never going to be a reality.